In this episode, we are joined by Amy Corfeli, co-host of the podcast and website 'In Sixteen Years of Endometriosis' to talk about the toll of medical gaslighting on mental health, relationships, and quality of life, but also finding peace with chronic illness.
It’s a story we’ve unfortunately heard multiple times on this podcast. A delayed diagnosis that goes on for years, decades even, all thanks to a mix of gaslighting, misinformation, and lack of specialists and awareness for conditions such as endometriosis.
Medical gaslighting doesn’t only affect physical health by allowing conditions to progress. It can lead to a domino effect of confusion, self-doubt, anxiety, or depression.
Our guest today has lived through these difficult experiences and feelings. She's now committed to helping the endometriosis community through advocacy and education.
Amy Corfeli from the In Sixteen Years of Endometriosis podcast joins us, sharing her journey to reaching a diagnosis, learning to find self-love again, and how you can still live your best life while living with chronic illness. She shares tips on what helps her to prepare for doctors appointments after years of medical trauma. And she gives us insight into how this year’s Endo Summit went and what we can look forward to with the endometriosis community coming together.
Lastly, we end on a high note that you may or may not believe! I promise that Carol hasn’t been lying! Go check the Apple store and download the Uterinekind app today. 💜
Thanks for listening, learning, and being you. And join us back here every Tuesday, in service to you, uterinekind.
Follow Amy on Instagram at @in16yearsofendo
Amy's website with excellent sources on endometriosis: insixteenyears.com
Amy's book, Finding Piece with a Devastating Disease: insixteenyears.com/book
[Adenomyosis study mentioned in the beginning of the show: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25728241/]
Carol: The big, messy ball. A result of gaslighting trauma and delayed diagnosis can be unwound. I'm Carol Johnson and this is Hello Uterus.
Amy is the host of the In 16 Years podcast and website, and she joins us today to discuss her experience living with endometriosis and to give us a recap of the Endo Summit founded by Dr. Sally Sarah. So stay tuned for a must hear interview. But first uterus in the news,
the Biden administration asked the US Fifth Circuit Court of appeals to keep Mifa Christone the abortion pill on the US market as this litigation plays out. So last Friday, the Texas judge who sparked a legal firestorm of sorts with a ridiculous. Oh, I mean, unprecedented ruling, halting approval of the most common pill used for abortion, which is healthcare.
Well, that Texas judge, hey, it's a little transparent. He was a former attorney for a religious liberty legal group. With a long history of pushing conservative causes. Matthew Kismaric. Suspension of the FDA's approval of Ms. Mifepristone is set to take effect. On Saturday, this coming Saturday. We're in the April 10th today when we're recording this.
And the argument to suspend this drug is absolute complete nonsense. Mifepristone is safe. In fact, Viagra is 10 times more dangerous than Mifepristone. And I think most everybody would consider Viagra to be fairly safe. as a female to witness this going on, it is disgust. Because it's so clear what the intention is here.
This has nothing to do with safety. This has to do with really with just controlling the female body and they're, they're clearly willing to sacrifice anyone and everything to make that happen, including the f d A. It's such a gross overreach. In an attempt to, you know, jettison science from our society in favor of religion, which I just gotta say, it's, it's, we're not gonna let that happen.
It's just not gonna happen. Supporting religion, the ability to pursue whatever religion you want to celebrate your religion in any way that you want to follow your religion in any way that you want. That's part of why the United States is the United States. And so this is an example of something that is not, you know, in alignment with our, with our values as a country and, um, the, the freedoms that we, that we.
Rely upon having, and, and it's just, it's just wild. But as that ruling came down on Friday at almost the exact same time, US District Judge Thomas O. Rice essentially ordered the opposite in a case in Washington. And so this split likely puts the issue on an accelerated path to the US Supreme Court. And this means it all depends on how much the Supreme Court thinks that they can get away with while still keeping their lifetime appointments.
So, stay tuned. Um, really grateful that Judge Thomas Rice went ahead and got involved here. And we'll see how the Supreme Court handles. Not fun times being a female in the United States of America, wanting to seek healthcare and have equality and access to healthcare in all of the treatments, um, and diagnostics and things that go along with it and, and, you know, the healthcare.
World is reeling as well, and it's just creating so much mistrust and frustration and, people's lives are, are being, tossed in turmoil and people will lose their lives. And, wow. What a shame that we have to burn all this time doing this because of a desire of a small group of people in this country to control female.
April is adenomyosis awareness month, and the most important thing to be aware of is that this is not a disease that only impacts those in their forties and fifties who have had children. There's a lot that we're gonna talk about, about adenomyosis. But I really hope that this information gets spread far and wide.
A fairly recent study will link it in the show notes on our website@uterinekind.com. A fairly recent study identified people. To participate in this study who had never been pregnant before and who experienced dysmenorrhea or painful periods. And they also had to be between the ages of 18 and 30, typically forties and fifties for adeno.
But in this case, they isolated ages 18 to 30. Well, wouldn't Chino, 34% of them had adenomyosis. 34. That's a third, that that is a massive number of people and also happening way earlier than it was originally thought to occur. So, like we say all the time, do not ignore your symptoms.
Do not let anyone tell you that painful periods are normal. No amount of pain during your period is normal. A little bit of discomfort. On the day or two before you begin, menstrual waiting, the day you begin menstrual waiting. And by discomfort, these are things that can be improved with heating pads, warm baths, ibuprofen, things like that, right?
But when it's pain, And it doesn't have to be a 10, it just means pain. If there's pain with your period, that is a sign that something is out of balance. And this data about adenomyosis occurring in 18 to 30 year olds at uh, 34% prevalence rate is really shocking. We will take a quick break and when we come back, we are so grateful to have Amy Corfe join us to talk about Endo mental wellbeing, tips, tools, and misinformation.
Carol: Joining us today is Amy Corfe, the creator of the N 16 Years website and host of the N 16 Years podcast. She's joining us to talk about mental health and endometriosis, along with giving us a recap of the Endo Summit, which took place last month during Endometriosis Awareness Month. Amy, Thank you so much for taking time out of your evening to join us here today on Hello Uterus.
Amy: Hi, Carol. Thank you so much for having.
Carol: Absolutely. So first, before we dive into talking about mental health and Endo, can you talk to us about your experience with endometriosis?
Amy: Yeah, I mean, I think my experience with endometriosis is very similar to many members of our community. you know, the, the story that gets repeated a lot, is I went, got my symptoms and basically spent years being gaslit, having my symptoms normalized, not getting support from the people around me because, my symptoms had been dismissed by so many doctors.
So it's like coming back, the tests are all fine, like, everything's normal. There's nothing wrong with you. You probably just have anxiety. Are you stressed, honey? Like you need to
drink more wine if your sex is painful.
Carol: I can feel my heart rate accelerating right now like that. That's like all the gas lighting in one like capsule.
Amy: Ooh. And there's so much more to go along with that. But
Carol: Wow.
Amy: know, I think that's really hard because in my experience, and I think in the experience of many people that I've communicated with in the endometriosis community, the gaslighting and the dismissal is so constant, right? And what can result, and I know what resulted for me is that you learn to stop trusting your body.
You learn to stop trusting your instincts, right? You start to self gaslight, you start to normalize your symptoms. You're like, okay, well, yeah. None of my other friends around me are like falling down, screaming and writhing when they get their period. But that's just because there's something inherently wrong with me.
That's because I'm broken. That's because I'm not good. Like, that's because I deserve my pain because I'm a bad person. That's cuz I'm not eating the right foods. I'm not sleeping the right way. I'm not doing X, Y, Z A, B, C. Insert all wellness and diet culture, sayings here, so for me, I think it was, 16 years of letting that gaslighting get internalized, and turn into self gaslight.
Carol: I haven't heard a lot of people mention the term self gaslighting, and it's, it's very powerful because, well, first of all, gaslighting, we all talk about it. We know that it happens, but it feels like even when talking about it and having people say like, yep, that happened to me, or I was gaslit, it still feels pretend in a way because there's no acknowledgement of it at the higher levels in medicine.
individual doctors will acknowledge it. And we, and I'm so grateful they do, cuz it, it really does help for people to hear it from an MD like, yep, this goes on all the time. But it, it's, like disorienting to experience gaslighting, to talk to people that have experienced gaslighting and yet have sort of the powers that be ignore it.
And then that leads to this idea of self gaslighting, which to me that's not a betrayal in the sense that you yourself are betraying yourself, but it's almost like you've been put in a position where you are betraying yourself from a place of being conditioned to do so. And that's super disturb.
How did that manifest in you? How did that change sort of the way you were naturally inclined to operate before these symptoms took hold?
Amy: Yeah, so, well, first I wanna say that I actually don't know if self gas lighting is a term. I just, said it in that moment, but it may or may not be a real term, and maybe it.
Carol: should be,
Amy: Yeah, so like I, I don't know, and maybe it's may or may not be the term that I'm looking for, but it is the term I can think of that, conveys what I'm, like what happened to me, which is basically that I stopped trusting myself and I started saying the same things to myself that the doctors were saying to me.
And also that the support people around me were saying to me because again, without that valid diagnosis from the person in the white coat, you know, my schools, my workplaces, my family, my partners, my friends, they didn't take my symptoms seriously. Like I was also in their eyes this hysterical, hypochondriac.
and then because of all these people telling me I was this hysterical hypochondriac with a low pain threshold that just like, was too sensitive and all the other things. That's what I started saying to myself. And in saying that to myself and losing that self-trust, I mean, what that looked like, a couple examples is, first of all, I was so insecure. Like, I just felt like I didn't know what I liked, what I didn't like. Everything that I did was wrong. Like I just was never enough. And I think another way that that manifested for me on a, on like a medical health level is that. I started having different symptoms than my normal like symptoms that, seemed like they were in my stomach.
Like I couldn't eat. Like I was super nauseous. I was burping a lot, so they were actually symptoms of gastritis. But because I'd been told so many times, and at that point I'd been 12 years that I'd been told over and over and I saw many doctors. I was very persistent. and I lived abroad for 10 years.
So I lived in Spain. I lived in Japan, and I lived in Ecuador. I looked for treatment in those three countries, plus my own country, which is the United States. And so all of those doctors and all of those countries and all of those three languages that I speak, you know, were telling me the same.
Right. So it's like really abundantly clear to me that I, I was the problem. so when the gastritis symptoms started, which I didn't know that they were a gastritis, I was 28. Um, I remember saying to my friend like, oh, my, my, my stomach is like really, really hurting. I'd never had stomach symptoms.
I had like pelvic pain, but not in my stomach. Anyway, he said like, go to the doctor. I was so scared to go to the doctor. I, plus I knew what was the point of going to the doctor. They're just gonna tell me that there's nothing wrong with me. They're gonna tell me that it's i b s. And actually the first doctor that I went to told me that, oh, that sounds like I B s.
And I was like, yeah, I've never had those symptoms before with my supposed I b s Cause I had all this diarrhea and stuff, which actually was endometriosis on my bowel, but hey. but you know, he was like, oh, well IBS is a tricky beast and the symptoms can just suddenly change. And, and then that delayed me even further from getting my gastritis diagnosis and treatment.
It really truly has consequences on us, not only as patients, but as people. And I think especially that can be true if we get sick at a younger age in our teens, you know, in our early twenties, those are really formative years for us. And so when you're constantly being told that you're making up these symptoms that are literally ruining and devastating every single aspect of your life, I mean that really like eats at your soul, right?
And it can become very confusing. Like
what is truth and what is not truth?
Carol: Yeah, that, that is perfectly said. and I, I really hope that those words get heard by many people and shared with doctors everywhere. when you dismiss somebody's symptoms, you are eating away at their soul. just think about like, you only have to do one thing, which is to say when someone expresses a symptom to you physician or tells you their symptom story, just say, tell me more.
Like, you don't have to immediately solve the problem. You don't have to say, oh, it's probably this. You can just say, tell me more and listen, and we talk about this all the time on this show. Physicians are taught in med school that 90% of a patient's diagnosis comes from their symptoms story. So there is such a weird thing happening there.
When that symptom story is ignored, it doesn't make any sense to me. And I'm actually, I'm just gonna ask you, I, I think I've mentioned a million times how I feel about this. Like when you hear that that 90% of a diagnosis comes from the patient's symptoms story and then you reflect on your own experience having your symptoms dismissed, how does that make you feel?
Amy: Well, Carol, let's see.
you know, it
Carol: This is a family friendly podcast.
Amy: it makes me feel like obviously feel very angry and enraged and it makes me enraged, not only for myself, but for the systemic problems that we have in the medical community, which are really reflective of the systemic problems that we have in the world, which is, like misogyny and racism, ableism.
there's just so many reasons why, I think women and other gender marginalized folks see that when we go to the doctor. We are not taken seriously and study after study, after study has proven and shown that, and that is even further compounded if we have other historically marginalized identities like, depending on our race, our social economic status, if we are disabled or not.
And all of that is so infuriating and so frustrating and can make a person feel really help.
Carol: Yeah, absolutely. And, and also part of that blame situation that, you know, it adds to that blaming that this is, on you. And if a black woman is expressing pain symptoms, then it's thought, well, she can't handle the pain, or, you know, she's seeking pain pills and, Oh my gosh. I mean I, my mom used to say all the time, life isn't complicated until you yourself complicate it.
Like they don't have to complicate stuff this much. You know, it's pretty pr it's a pretty good idea to just objectively evaluate a patient, right? That's like, you don't, you're gonna have to learn how to leave those judgments at the exam room door because we're gonna make you, it's kind of how, it's what it's gonna come down to.
Cuz we're, we just, the more that we talk about this, the more people will go in and say, oh, that's inappropriate. So we can either start this consultation over and we can look at my symptoms objectively and try to connect the dots on them. Or you can continue to judge me because of my gender, my skin color, and then I'm gonna get my copay back and go find a different doctor.
Like, I just feel like at this stage in the game, that's sort of how we have to address it.
Amy: Well, I think that nowadays, I think with social media and there's so many books that have come out on misogyny and the, sex and gender bias in medicine books that have been published, you know, in the last couple of years that are really well researched, not only with statistics about, different forms of discrimination, when a patient goes to the doctor, but also filled with patient stories.
So I think at this point there's no denying that this is a reality. And hopefully while we will see change within the medical community, and I don't know when, at least on a patient level, we can be more informed. And I think if I had known about this 10 years ago, 15 years ago when I first started being dismissed in gas lit, maybe of course it probably still would've affected my care because I only got good care when I found a doctor who knew what the heck endometriosis was.
But maybe it wouldn't have eaten away at my soul. You know, maybe I could have gone in there. And yet, like now when I get gas lit, like, it's like I know that I'm not broken. Like I know the system is broken and it was made that way. And so I leave these doctor's appointment, I'm angry, I'm crying, but it doesn't eat away at me like as a person, right?
I don't start blaming myself, dismissing myself, doubting myself, like I feel at this time empowered and. I guess my, my anger and my theory like pushed me to keep going to find the care that I need, which of course comes from a place of great privilege because not everyone can, you know, continue to access care after they,
um, have been denied care.
Carol: Yeah, absolutely. and that ability to access care is becoming increasingly more difficult, as legislation takes hold. That creates complications in receiving gynecologic care.
And, you know, people choosing not to pursue being gynecologists serves obstetricians because of that. when you were describing the difference between today with the education, now you might still be angry or get upset, but there's this distance between you and the gaslighting, whereas earlier, there was no boundary.
It was the gaslighting was absorbed into you. So can you talk a little bit about boundary setting around that and how you, how you erected boundaries after so many years of having them breached.
Amy: Oof. That's a tough one. I do have a really good idea for a guest for you who is gonna be really good at talking about that. So I'll tell you, I'll tell you about her
Carol: Oh,
Amy: Um, but I think, there's only so much you can do when you are with a provider that deems you as combative or that has like a bias implicit or explicit bias towards you.
Right. there's all these articles about like, How to better advocate for yourself. And I even have a podcast episode coming up about how to better advocate for yourself because, maybe there are things that we can do. There's certainly things that I do like, I try to dress the part, so I try to go in like a business casual clothing so I can be perceived as having a certain socioeconomic status.
I always, um, at this point I prep the day before I take an hour to like, think about what am I trying to get out of this appointment. Like what are my main concerns? I actually write it all down and then I pull out just like bullet points. I print them for the doctor. This way I can just give them to the doctor because the last thing that I wanna do is start talking about my symptoms and get emotional and then be deemed that hysterical woman.
Right. So like, I'm, I'm,
Carol: a good
Amy: yeah, so like I'm taking steps to, try to control as much as I can how I come off. To the doctor, but I wanna be clear that we should not have to do that. And two, no matter how hard we attempt to come off a certain way, the doctor, or the providers are still gonna have their own biases based on like their own experiences and like their own, biases that they have.
So I, I really wanna just put say that like, it is not on us as the patient. So while there are things we can try to do, and these certainly are things that I do. That doesn't mean that I always have a successful appointment and now I understand that it's like I did the best that I could and it's really on the end of the provider to meet me halfway.
and sometimes it's like you have a provider and they're not treating you the way that you want or they're not meeting you halfway, but maybe you don't have any other options, right? Like you can't find a new provider. Maybe they're the only one that you can access. That's really hard because then it's like, I feel like I'm, bending myself to, you know, have the most minimal impact so that I can actually get the treatment that I need and that the, like, biases don't get in the way.
So it's, a really complicated dance, with some of these providers. So as much as I love the idea of like getting in there all empowered and like setting my boundaries and being like, don't interrupt me and here's my concerns. And unfortunately, the, truth is most of the times when we go to the doctor, especially as a chronic illness patient, it can feel so vulnerable.
There's so much medical trauma that has followed us. once I get to the, when I get inside the doctor's office, I, I'm just like already shaking. I find it really hard to communicate, even though I'm actually a really good communicator and have a podcast. I just like lose my voice when I'm at the doctor, hence why I write it down on the paper and just hand it to the doctor. So, it's very complex.
Carol: Yeah. And having to, whether you're aware of it or not. there is like this development of hyper awareness around how to interact with this person who, who is the gatekeeper between you and wellness? and when you were talking about beginning to describe your symptoms and then getting emotional, people will wait weeks to have a doctor's appointment and they're thinking about everything that they wanna say and, bringing all of that experience together in that one 15 minute appointment.
And they could hit that doctor on a good day or a bad day or a terrible day for either one of them. And you only have those 15 minutes, so you have to make the most of them. So, that's really good guidance. Just think it's strategically brilliant to give the doctor, I really do, to give the doctor something to place their eyeballs on.
While you're talking and kind of get them out of the routine that they're in, which is, if you're lucky, you get, what are you here for today? And then followed by, that's totally normal. I have so many patients that deal with that. one of the, you know, are you on on any kind of, medication to deal with your symptoms?
We can talk to you about birth control, blah, blah, blah. Right? And they get into this conditioned response sort of thing. So if you can, get them out of that, whether it's handing them your symptoms beforehand or maybe asking them a question out of the gate, like, how many patients do you, well that might actually be considered sort
Amy: Aggressive and. Yeah,
Carol: Yeah, I was gonna say, how many
Amy: don't question my authority.
Carol: Yeah, may,
maybe it's, uh, whenever I hear that, I think of Carman from South Park. Don't question my author. Tie, the, uh, know, just something that can kind of get them, off their normal trajectory. One of the things that I started doing, about 20 years too late was to indicate that my goal was to get a definitive diagnosis for the symptoms that I was experiencing.
and I would ask the doctor, is that something that we can work on together? Or will you need to refer me to someone to do that? My intention in asking that question is to say, I'm here to get a diagnosis buddy. And so that's what we're gonna do.
Right? But the way that we present it is, inquisitive. Like, is that the role that you play or is there someone else that I might need to talk to? to let them know out of the gate that you're not there just to have a typical appointment because, you had indicated you've seen multiple doctors.
I, I had for fibroids and celiac, I had seen over, I'd gone to over 50 doctor appointments. I had a fairly small group of physicians between four to six physicians that I was kind of bouncing between. but never once did I ask them for a definitive diagnosis, like I left it all in their hands, which is not a good idea.
So, excellent way to start your doctor appointment there. And so, can you talk about how your relationship with yourself has changed over time due to meeting these challenges over this really large period of time in your life? 16.
Amy: Well, it's funny because I have changed so drastically. but interestingly I feel like the biggest changes that have come, you know, I've always been interested in working on myself and like. I think I definitely got too wrapped up in wellness culture. Um, and of course I can't blame myself, but that was kind of all that was available to me when, uh, when all the doctors were saying that there was nothing wrong and there was nothing that they could do besides, birth control and, ibuprofens.
So I became like really obsessed with self-improvement, both on a physical and an emotional level. but it's interesting because I think it was only when I got diagnosed with endometriosis at 33 years old and I got that validation that I'm not broken, that I was actually really able to like, let go of chasing wellness through wellness culture and also refine that trust in myself and by refinding that.
Trust in myself and like refinding my instincts. I like having that validation has given me the space to like work on my traumas, like the traumas that I've been through, right? Like work on, just work on so many different aspects that I was working on before, but I just, it was really, really difficult to, work on.
For example, I had a really strong critic in my head. I had so much self-loathing, like I was really trying to work on, the way that I talked to myself, the way that I always blamed myself. But I feel like I could only get so far with what I was doing because I still had this core belief that it was my fault that I was sick.
And so it's really in the past. I was diagnosed five years ago actually. Five years ago today.
Carol: Oh,
Amy: So thank you. So it's, it astounds me how much in five years I have been able to grow and like find my true self and like understand how strong I am and like all the things that I've been through.
Because before I, I just felt like I was flailing all the time. Like I was just underwater trying to survive. I think my whole personality was a trauma response, like, really? and it was just really only not, of course, the moment I got diagnosed, oh, everything, like became happy and wonderful, but it was diagnosed and getting that validation.
Just like before my diagnosis, I was at a point where I couldn't even talk loudly because I, I just like whispered, people would be like, can you talk louder? And I'd be like, I can't. Just, cuz my confidence was so low because my self-hatred was so high.
And like, once I got my diagnosis, it was like boom, I was right all along. Like there's something wrong with me, which is endo, but like, there's nothing wrong with me Refinding that just understanding that at a deep level that like I am worthy, I think. And all of that started bleeding over into other aspects of my life.
where the patriarchy tells us, you have to look a certain way. as I said, I'm a cis woman. Like you have to look a certain way as a woman All these things that society tells us about, like the, our appearance and our production and all these things.
just somehow was able to, get my trust back of myself and then actually really be able to like unravel all these things that this like messy ball that had been for a decade and a half when I was just struggling
to survive every single day.
Carol: How did you know that messy ball was there to be unraveled?
Amy: I do think that comes from like what I've been trying to do while living as a messy ball, but just different self-help books, seeing in the community, people sharing their own stories of growth. I'm really being into meditation, mindfulness, so just a lot of like, I think contact with that community.
so I had a lot of self-awareness that there was a lot that I. Wanted to work on. And there's all these, there's really wonderful books available about like the self critic in your head, the judge in your head, like the stories that we tell ourselves, right? so I was definitely, I think, aware and trying to work on all of that.
I said, it's hard to get anywhere when this like integral piece of your soul when you're just like eating away at it and you don't know why and
like you don't know how to.
Carol: That brings up the, the power of getting a definitive diagnosis and having that happen as early after symptom onset as possible. and for the medical community to recognize. And again, we're not vilifying anyone. there are foundational problems that. like if you start to make a soup with gasoline, you know, the soup isn't gonna taste great, right?
So there, there are foundational issues there that need to get cleaned up for us to be able to improve this whole thing. But, the information is not that buried. Like it's pretty easy to go on social media and trip over somebody who's telling a story about an experience that they had trying to get some kind of healthcare and how debilitating it was and traumatic for them to do so.
And so, one of the things that I noticed in myself and I've noticed in other people is they tell their stories that when these symptoms, for some people, when the symptoms kick in, they may disassociate from their body or separate themselves, from their symptoms, which can lead to a variety of problems.
And then when that diagnosis finally does land, there is a lot to repair there. You know, it's not like you get, like you said, it's not like you get the diagnosis and everything is great, but it's also not like you get the diagnosis and a treatment plan and the work is done because so much damage has been caused prior, and we've been talking about mental health, but there's also damage caused to the body that impacts mental health that is going to take time to heal beyond excision surgery, beyond, any treatment options that you uptake that bring you some physical relief.
So this is 16 years, right? I've talked to people four years, right? I mean, not that it should be four months. I mean, I'm not gonna say four days because we understand this is pretty difficult, but, four months or so, if that, if we could work on that, that would be awesome.
But to go 16 years and then see that messy ball that you have to untangle and how big it is that I just wanna give you kudos for not running away from that messy ball, because I cannot imagine how overwhelming that process would've looked to.
you. Especially because you've mentioned a few times in our talk today that it wasn't just your care team that was dismissing you, it was also your support.
Did, do you mean like you, your friends and your family?
Amy: yes, it was definitely the friends in the family and friends, family partners. but while you were talking, I was thinking about how, like so many others in the community that I've seen who get their diagnosis, and I was very privileged that alongside my diagnosis, I was able to get excision surgery, which is the gold standard treatment for endometriosis.
And on every anniversary of my excision surgery and diagnosis, I reflect on like how it's going for me. And I actually looked yesterday at the posts that I had made last year, and it was all about the trauma that I had faced. It was all about like the medical trauma that I had gone through. Part of my diagnosis was, I had a 12 centimeter endometrioma that's the size of a grapefruit.
The doctor originally wasn't sure if it was cancer or not, so, they sent me off to a gynecological oncologist. So we actually were originally, thinking it was cancer. I end up losing the ovary because they went in and they removed the endometrial with the ovary cuz they thought it could be cancer.
Turns out all that was completely unnecessary. And then, of course, by removing one ovary, I ended up having like major hormone problems and that like jumpstarted another chronic illness that I now have, which is mass activation syndrome, which has been like the biggest nightmare of my life. so it's like there's so much, trauma to unpack.
and like you said, in my own case it was 16 years of trauma, but it could be a year of trauma. I mean, trauma is so overwhelming and all consuming and I think. By the time that I got to my thirties, I'd already been divorced twice. I lost all my friends in high school, in college, in my early twenties because like I was very social.
But I just, there was so much trauma dumping on my part. There was so much like complaining about my illness and being very self-focused and like not really able to, have a give and take in a relationship. And I don't judge myself.
Like I hated myself for who I'd been and like how I acted. But now I just have so much self-compassion because of course I was flailing of course, like I was having a menstrual cycle that, had me screaming in pain so much that one time, like my neighbors heard me and they came over and they were like, are you okay?
Cuz they heard me through the walls, like, I was peeing myself, pooping myself. I had so many food intolerances, it was so difficult to eat. You know, when I think back to like how hard it was to like live in this body and then on top of everyone saying nothing's wrong, and then on top of the friends, the family, the loved ones who, didn't wanna hear about it, like I said, it was just this giant ball of trauma. I could, barely speak above a whisper. I had no idea who I was. I feel really lucky to be so different now. And I can say that not only from my diagnosis, but also like getting a partner who believes me, right.
Hi. Actually, his mom and his
daughter actually have endometriosis. and
Carol: Wow. What a
Amy: yeah, and you
Carol: I mean, not a gift, you know, not a gift to them, but I mean, yeah,
Amy: he gets it. And like getting a best friend, when I moved to this city, like ended up finding a best friend who was also sick and dynamically disabled, like I am getting my diagnosis, being able.
Then once I had a name endometriosis, I was able to find this community on Instagram that prior I had no access to because I didn't know what was. Wrong with me. Right? And so all of that community support and validation came together to, like I said, like lift me up and help me do, which I'm still doing this, like really challenging trauma work and mental health work to refine not only myself, like who am I, like who, who am I, right?
Like to find out who I am, but to rebuild my life with my symptoms. Cuz while actually I don't have any symptoms due to endometriosis anymore, thanks to excision, I still have tons of symptoms due to the mass activation syndrome. So How can I find joy in my life, even with the symptoms that I have?
Like, how can I be at peace? How can I have calm, how can I have meaning, how can I laugh? How can I prioritize my values? And like that's really a journey that I've been on in the past, five years since my diagnosis that.
I really just could not be on prior to.
Carol: Wow. Okay. So that, first of all, so inspiring as you're saying that, I'm just like, wow, that is the definition of turning lemons into lemonade or whatever colloquialism you wanna use, that's how to handle trauma, to be able to have the courage to look at it and to recognize that you know, it wasn't of your making, it wasn't something that you were deserving of.
And then to use that experience to evolve yourself into this more compassionate, engaged person who still is, dealing with health issues but is standing on a solid foundation. That's what it really feels like. Like you're just kind of really rock solid. So that is really inspiring for people who have maybe haven't gotten a diagnosis or they have gotten a diagnosis and it's almost, you know, they're in that in between period of like, wow, this is really bad and it was bad before the diagnosis and now it's just as bad after, you know, there's.
Opportunity to. use it to your advantage. so the the diagnosis is super, super important. you've mentioned twice a condition that you have mass activation syndrome
Amy: Oh, the beloved masked cell activation
Carol: masked
Amy: Ma cell
Carol: m a s T. Can you, can you describe that?
Amy: Ooh. Honestly, I might describe it incorrectly. Um, but basically, and the reason why is because, with endometriosis, I'm like a very strong and loud advocate in the community. Like, I have been so focused on endometriosis, like the science, the biology, like the social issues in our community, and that's what my podcast is about, my book, my website, et cetera.
when it comes to the mass activation syndrome, the thought of it is so overwhelming. You know, every time that I like start reading more about it, I'm just like, flooded, flooded with overwhelm and panic. So I've been taking it like really slowly. most important to me has been like trying to get stable with my symptoms.
So basically my rough understanding in it, and I wanna, forgive me if I don't have this entirely correct. but basically your mass cells are, I think they're white blood cells, but It's basically like having allergies to things. Your mass cells, let off mediators. they let off I think like a thousand mediators or something.
But like a lot of mediators, one of the main ones, that bother many people is histamine. histamine is involved in the allergy response, so are the MA cells. So basically it's just like when your ma cells become overreactive, ma cells are found in every part of the body, so you can actually have all these different symptoms, like, some of my symptoms and they've changed over time as I've gotten treatment.
but when I first got sick, like my biggest symptoms were hives and then it changed. I was having like, so like hives then, like my mouth was going numb, my teeth were going numb, like my tongue was swelling, I was having anaphylaxis. so that's probably the most dangerous and scary symptoms. So that was my main concern was.
You know, how do I stop having anaphylaxis? which I'm very happy to say, don't have anaphylaxis anymore. In the past two years, other symptoms have for me have been like racing heart, very terrible insomnia, migraines, brain fog. So there is, there's a lot. and the problem with that is that because it's like with your immune system reactions, and they're overreacting, you can have, it's not like, oh, I'm allergic to nuts. It's more like when the ma cells become triggered, then I have a reaction. And when, like, it's like you have a bucket and you're just like all day long, like dropping water in the bucket. Once the bucket overflows, I have a reaction. So like today, It's okay to eat cashews, but like maybe tomorrow, because I ate cashew yesterday and then maybe I ate avocado and I took a shower and I went in the sun and I had sex.
Now my bucket is full and now I eat a blueberry and I overflow. And it's not because of the blueberry, it's cuz all these other things filled the bucket at one level or another. so yeah, that's what's going on with me. And uh, it's been really fun. Not really, but now that I'm more stable, I'm honestly just, there's still so much I could probably do and I do wanna do it, but I just need to ride the wave.
Like I have been sick for 20 years and all I want at this time is a little bit of stability, which I finally have cuz I really fought tooth and nail, to become stable when my symptoms began, which they began post excision. probably due to the hormone change and the sibo cuz I had like bowel surgery.
and then like, trauma. So there's all these different like, reasons why that I've been working on. so it's been complicated and complex, but right now I'm just, right in the wave, like I know what's wrong with me and I'm, still having symptoms, right?
But I'm, but they're not like ruining my life. They're just like, very frustrating. I'm just gonna let it be right now. I'm I just can't right now. I just, I don't wanna be researching every second about this. I just wanna be with my kitties and like, take a walk outside and like paint and I just wanna be with myself and all my
Carol: you've earned that. Yeah. And you're choosing to do that, cuz like you said, that you can't do that. You can't look up all that stuff. Well, you could because my goodness, I, we've only spent a half hour together and you're like, one of the strongest people I've ever met in my life. So I think that you're probably very capable of doing it, but you're choosing not to.
And I think that's something really important, is making those little choices. That leads to rebuilding back your confidence and, your ability to rely on yourself to guide you rather than feeling like you're at everyone else's whim. And so that, that's very, like to me that that's just an example of how many skills you've developed throughout this experience to be more aware of your needs and in tune with your body. and then, from a, a place of knowing, making very good choices for yourself.
Amy: See, I got my intuition back. I got my self
trust.
Carol: Yeah. Yeah. Which we need, it's one of the most powerful things that we have. The ability, the, the intuitive ability and, and it's something that can be developed over time or it can be silenced. Very, very cool. we have just a little bit more time left. I want, I have two questions for you. One, what is your guidance specific to mental health while living with Endo?
If somebody is in a position right now where it's the fairly standard, I'm struggling to get by and mentally I don't feel great. What are some, some of the like, first couple things you would recommend to somebody to do when they're in that situation?
Amy: Well, first I wanna preface this with I am just a normal person who's not any kind of mental health professional or therapist or anything. but I think sometimes the only thing that we're told is, oh, if you're struggling with your mental health, like go see a per, like a mental health professional.
And that is absolutely a fabulous recommendation, right? If we can access that, if we feel comfortable with that, but if we're not able to access that, if we're not comfortable with that, there's still so much we can do. I think for our mental health, because our mental health is not just the time that we spend, like with a therapist, for example, but it's also things like having community support, right?
Like having someone who will listen to you. And for a long time I had no one who had listened to me, so I journaled, right? I just got on my computer and I would just type away, type away, everything that I was feeling and, thinking, because I didn't have anyone to talk to. So I talked. To myself.
so I think it's like getting it, getting it out there. Another thing is, I think re-finding joy in our life and something I've been doing now, which I recommend to everyone. , find something that you love. something that you love could be like being out in nature or taking a walk or like watching funny movies or painting or doing chigong, like painting your fingernails. There's taking a bath. I mean, there's so many things find something that you love and try to cultivate more joy in your life.
Even if you can only do five minutes a day, then take five minutes for yourself, it's like as human beings? what makes us wanna get up in the morning? People in our community, people in our family. our wonderful pets, our, of course, the kitties, that's my family.
But yeah, what makes us wanna get up in the morning? Right? And I think trying to figure out how to answer that question for ourselves can be a huge help to our mental health. And that can also be really hard to answer because with chronic illness, so much of what we love gets taken away. And there's so many limitations that are placed in our bodies, and I've seen that over and over again where I've, I've had to be flexible and adapt and like reinvent myself.
And so it's really come down to like, what fills me at my core? Because I thought what filled me was very specific things like, Playing tennis. Well, that got taken away when I got fatigue
it's not about these specific things, although like the act of that activity, like, I love it, but for me, I realize it's like getting in a state of flow, right? Like when I play, when I do sports, which I don't do anymore when I do art, which often I don't do anymore. Like, it's like getting in a state of flow really makes me feel like I have meaning.
So maybe for someone else that'll be, communicating maybe for someone else that'll be like, acts of service, kind of like our love languages, right? Like, helping other people. what are our core values and how can we reintegrate our core values into our life? Even if the expression of that core value is different.
than it was before. And so now I really get into a flow when I write. So thankfully, I'm still able to write, who knows if that'll ever get taken away, but right now, I, you know, I can write. And so I get into this flow and I write, and I've written a book. I have a website, like I have my own podcast. So that's kind of like how now I'm finding my meaning, where before it was tennis and then it was art, so it's like changed over time. But that core essence of what it brings to me is still the same.
Carol: I love that idea of, getting in flow or being in flow, and especially When you look at, telling that to someone who's living with a chronic condition, they think well, everything that I used to do that would get me into that state I can't do anymore. But that state is still mem, it's still a memory, it's still something that you can descend into and sort of recreate within yourself.
Just this feeling of being in flow. We talked earlier about, disassociating from the body and disassociating from symptoms. Being able to bring your whole self together inside and enter a state of flow, whether it's meditation or if that makes it too much of a process, just literally sitting and closing your eyes and imagining that, for another podcast.
But I think it's a very interesting thing to talk about is what that actually does on a physical level and how it, can help improve your symptoms. Just by releasing the tension and you know, even just like lowering your shoulders kind of sense a signal to your, endocrine system that you, that there's nothing around you that's about ready to take you out.
Right. That you're telling your body. It's all good. I'm not in fight or flight. So that's very cool. I mean, we all know that these things get taken away from you, but they're, you know, it sounds like it's more work to do. Right? The things are taken away. Now you gotta go. I don't mean it like that cuz I actually don't think it's more work.
I think it's, I think it's an opportunity to, accomplish what Amy's accomplished, which is to rebuild that relationship with yourself and have it be very loving and compassionate and effective. Right. That it's you and you. it's not just you, it's you and you and you're a team. and together you can really make some profound.
Changes happen and improvements happen.
Amy: Yeah. Real quick, I'd just like to say on that is that, Well, it's really heartbreaking. It's really heartbreaking to let go of something that you really want to let go of my art to let go of playing sports. Like it's really heart-wrenching. but it's also really rewarding to refind something else in your life.
And I think that can be a slow process. It's not like, oh, I can't do art anymore. Ooh, I'll do this other thing. Like, it took me time to find different things and there was frustrations and a lot of feelings I had to work through. And I will say that when I was, post excision and I had the onset of my mass activation syndrome and I was extraordinarily sick and I really could not do anything, and honestly the world was crumbling around me, like everything was falling apart.
actually every day for hours, I just curled up in a ball on a rug on the floor in the dark with a candle. And I just like held myself and I just rocked back and forth. And I just said like, You'll be okay. You'll be okay. You'll be okay. Like just over and over and over and over. and yeah, I wouldn't say that that gave me joy, right?
But that kind of constituted the only comfort that I had during those months of, like that onslaught of symptoms that I was going through where I really couldn't have any joy in my life. And my soul was just so heavy with sadness, but I was still able to find comfort from myself.
And that's something , that's a skill and that's a tool that I learned over these 20 years because definitely I could not do that 10, five years ago, let alone, I mean, my goodness, 10, 20 years ago.
So I think so much is about trusting yourself, but also finding the tools. And I love this saying by Peter Levine, which is, without the tools, trauma rules, And that is absolutely the truth that messy tangled ball that we were talking about, you know, with the right support, with the right tools, with the right guidance, like we can begin to separate that and rebuild our life, even when our life is falling apart around us.
Carol: Yeah. And, once you rebuild, or even if you rebuild, just, part of it, right? Just one room. That sense of, self-reliance and, inner strength is, powerful. Momentum can propel you forward for whatever you have to deal with. And just look at, right after excision, you're facing this, second hurdle, this second health hurdle, which is a brutal one.
and, the way you went about it was Very supportive. Very cool. before we go, I wanna ask you about the Endo Summit, which occurred in March of this year, and you were fortunate enough to be able to attend. Can you report back to us. on anything that stood out for
Amy: Yeah, and I also present. End of summit I gave a interactive talk on finding acceptance and peace with endometriosis. So
Carol: man. Just hearing that is like a sigh of relief, right? Just hearing, just having somebody say that mean what, which it means that it's achievable, right? You can't
Amy: I mean it looks different for everyone, but I think staying open to that possibility is extremely important. and that sometimes that can be the most hardest. First step is just staying open to the possibility that we can feel differently about our. But to answer your question about the summit in itself, yeah.
So this year I was very fortunate to attend in person and I also did attend last year virtually. So that's another option for people if they cannot make it, in person. Cuz it is really, it was hard, to be in person, so it was hard to leave the house, which I almost never leave except to get the mail.
But I think some of the best things about the summit is that, it's really bringing together the patients and the providers and the doctors that go, it's so hard because in our daily life it's like most of the doctors that we go to for endometriosis, like they have no clue how to treat endometriosis, A lot of them think they do, but they actually, they don't. And they don't know that they don't. But you have in the same room like. These renowned experts in the field. I don't know how many, maybe 10, 15, 20 doctors who like, have come or possibly more who have come together, who know how to treat endometriosis, who are so knowledgeable, who are there to teach us to teach each other, but also who wanna interact with the patients, right?
So I spent so much time like mingling, meeting doctors, like, just going up to them and they're just like, Hey, what's your name? And they want to talk to you as the patient, right? They want to interact with you. And that is such a fabulous energy to have this collaboration because, Patients are so important.
Like patient advocacy is so important in like disease, but especially with endometriosis because you know, as we know, it's just rife with misinformation and it's the advocates who we, we patients are teaching each other, right? And so it's like so much of what I teach on my own podcast with endometriosis has come from me learning from the experts, like seeing the experts at the Endo summit, like hearing them talk, like hearing them on podcasts or like watching their Instagram videos.
me like self-learning and then being able to spread that learning, right? So I think that is so powerful because there are really so many few sources of consistent, accurate information for endometriosis and just like having access. Is absolutely fabulous.
Carol: And it's great for the doctors to have access to you all because everyone who lives with endometriosis holds the key to us finding out what causes endometriosis. and I feel like it's an area of health where the conversation between the doctors and the patients can really be productive, long term to determining, diagnostics, non-invasive diagnostics, and to getting at better treatments. Maryelle who works at Uterine Kind sent me a, a little question, earlier today and she said, I just wanna know about misinformation because on Good Morning America and ob, G Y N said that to treat endometriosis, you have to remove the ovaries. And I was like, well, you know what they say the call is coming from inside the house, man.
Because it's like you have, when you have doctors going around saying stuff like
Amy: Okay, stop that you said that because literally today, my entire day has been focused
on this clip that I saw of that doctor and I, I'm probably gonna be blocked like any second, cuz I left like six very long,
Educational, accurate, comments and I posted it to my stories and the community was on it.
Right? Like, like that post of that clip has over like 150 comments of I think people disregard, like they don't understand how informed we endometriosis patients are. Like we have read the guidelines, you know, we have read the, there's eight, there's American guidelines, European guidelines, Australian guidelines, Like, we have read all these guidelines, like we are talking about the care that we receive. Like we are all over it. and it is so disappointing to, but it's also so emblematic of this disease that we see a doctor go on TV and say like, just state that you need to remove the ovaries to treat the disease. Which no, you don't. and so the community I think is. I've noticed over the past years, like we just keep getting more and more informed and there's more and more of us who are educating, advocating, teaching each other and jumping on, when we see misinformation like jumping on and, sometimes we're frustrated so we just, put some red flags right on the post.
Like so many of us are like citing research studies and like, this is the facts and this is me backing up my facts.
Like I'm just not some hysterical patient, spewing drama. Like I know what I'm talking about. And I think that is so powerful.
so yeah, it's ironic that it's just ironically that you said that because
Carol: Yeah,
Amy: I spent like my whole day dealing with that.
Carol: It might have been, it might have been your comment that she saw and it's, it's so true. You know, that, and again, not vilifying doctors, there are multiple conditions that are largely not understood, and they're trying to juggle everything and they see 40 patients a day. And, but what it does, suggest is that.
patient advocates need to be elevated in, in, especially in chronic conditions.
The patients are living this and so they need to be elevated. And instead of Good Morning America, the bookers relying on MDs, right? they'll often just say, we need an MD to talk about this. You know what? No, you don't. No you don't. You need a patient. To talk about it. that's who's going to actually give the accurate information.
It just makes common logical sense. They're specialists in the experience of endometriosis and gynecologists are essentially by the nature of the beast, generalists over the female body. So I would be booking a patient advocate every day. Thank you. so much for spending this time with us today. It has been a, a delight to talk to you and, the things that you've shared are to me like the, they're clearly the result of a lot of contemplation on your part, which.
Means that the information that you shared is like rich because it's something that you've sat with and you've experienced it yourself. and so I want everyone to know how they can follow you and, get exposed to more of your content because it's top notch.
Amy: Thank you. Oh my gosh, you're so kind. Well, I assume you'll put like in your show notes my different like candles and stuff, but yeah, basically I'm very active on Instagram at, in 16 years of Endo and that's where I do like a lot of advocacy. I I have a website and I have, which is in 16 years.com, and I have a podcast which is in 16 years of endometriosis.
and so that's on the podcast. You know, it's been going for four years now. I have over a hundred episodes. but it's basically we talk, me and my best friend talk about these topics. Like we talk about our growth, we talk about how we got here. It's a very supportive and nurturing place. It's also a very humorous and funny place.
lots of, humor and jokes on the podcast. And then finally, like I said, I, I have a book. It's called Finding Peace with a Devastating Disease. And I think this is a really good resource for people if they are looking to try to have more peace in their life with their illness, which I think is one of the hardest things that we can do, is, try to figure out how to live well with this illness.
So that book really outlines, it outlines different topics. it follows my story, but it's not like, an autobiography. It's like every chapter is a different topic. So like, feeling like a burden, self-compassion, like that heavy sinking feeling when you realize that you have a chronic illness.
So it like follows different topics. And at the end of every topic, there's 76 topics. They're all very short chapters, like just a couple of pages. Um, and then at the end it has a ref, self-guided journaling prompt. So as the reader, if you wanna explore what that means to you, what does, like finding meaning in your life mean to you?
What is slowing your life down mean to you? What are the stories you tell yourself about your illness? Like, this is my fault, for example. You can do a self-exploration. Which I think can be really helpful to get to know yourself and get
to Refind and RET trusts yourself.
Carol: Oh, absolutely. and if It's if it is the process that you've followed, I, I then I highly recommend it because I can tell from spending time with you that you've got this down doesn't mean that life is all unicorn glitter and, lots of cute kittens. Every day you get a new batch of kittens it.
but still, I can see just in your smile and in your, just in your spirit, that you have really, discovered some very effective techniques and tools that people can use. And the name of the book again is,
Amy: It's called Finding Peace for the Devastating Disease, and I really,
Carol: and it does. So
Amy: I really wanted to point out in the title The Devastating Disease, because what I really. Wanted to make clear in the book is that this is not an easy process, and this is with endometriosis specifically, is what I'm referring to in the book.
Of course, it could be used for any chronic illness, but this is a disease that completely ravaged my life, ravaged my, all of my bodily functions, ravaged my relationships, ravaged my career, my fertility ravaged everything. So it's not a book of toxic positivity. It's not like a shove down your feelings.
It's like these feelings are here and they are heavy and like, but how can I process them? Like, how can I turn my life from one of survival to one where like I feel like there's meaning again and I feel like I have a reason to get up
in the morning. Maybe not every morning, but on most mornings.
Carol: Maybe not the raining mornings, but you found joy. you figured out where Joy was in the midst of. All of that that you were living with. So, just fantastic opportunity for people to be able to read from somebody who has lived it, you know, and lived it well, just despite how devastating it is.
You, you did a great job.
Amy: Well, thank you. But there's really no judging, good or bad. The truth is, we just do what we do. We just do our
best. And, yeah, well, we try, you know, I didn't
Carol: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Amy: always have grace, but it doesn't come with a manual. And I think part of that is that self-compassion, which is a big theme in the book.
It's just like, I did the best I could. I had two divorces. I did the best I could. I lost all my friends. I did the best I could.
Carol: And you're not tethered to those things in the past in a way that prevents you from being able to bring a, a new, method to bear on something that you're dealing with in the present. Very cool. Well, thank you so much for being here. it's been a delight to talk to you. We will include in our show notes, ways to follow Amy online and definitely right now go subscribe to the podcast.
You will love it. Amy and Brittany is the co-host, your, your dear friend. they are phenomenally entertaining, insightful. It's a great listen, especially when podcasts around chronic diseases can be very intense. I had a wonderful time listening to you both, so Thank you very much.
Amy: Thank you so much Carol. I really appreciate your time and having me on the podcast. You're doing wonderful work yourself and it's really appreciated.
Carol: Thank you.
we'll be right back with ending on a high note. The high note today is totally self-serving. I'm just gonna get that right out, out of the gate at the front. The Uterine Kind app is available in the Apple store. I think that everybody was thinking I was just making stuff up, and I'm like, I think we're gonna be in next week.
We're trying to get in. We're trying to get in. Here's the reason why we, it took so long. We built a progressive web app so that people didn't have to have a smartphone to be able to use it, because not everybody has a smartphone. Not everyone can afford a smartphone. Not everyone can afford to keep internet access with their smartphone.
So if you have access to any computer, At all does not need to be a smartphone. You can download the Uterine Kind app at uterinekind.com. You can even use it on your desktop. You don't ever have to have it on your phone if you don't want to.
You can use it on a community or library computer. and what's really important is that you are taking just a few minutes every day to record your symptoms. Even if you're not experiencing symptoms, you're recording essentially. Your health over time and that data is really valuable to you. And we don't sell that data PS, but it's really valuable because if something changes or if you need to address an issue, you've got that data in your hand.
It's like a medical record that you yourself own. And trust me, the medical record that, that your doctor is taking does not. Have all of the information that your uterine kind health record will have. So check it out. It's in the Google store and the Android store. Just search for uterine kind. You can visit uterine kind.com to learn more.
Please follow us on social. Uterine kind on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook. And if you benefit from this information on the podcast, please share it with people that you know. And also please subscribe and go and give us a review, if you would, if you find this information is helpful. This helps us get the podcast out there so people who need it can access it, and we really appreciate your support.
Thank you, angel, for producing this podcast. Thank you. The team back at headquarters at Uterine Kind. Great work on getting us in the Apple store, and now we can focus on welcoming our members and creating amazing content for you all so that we can get you on the path to wellness without delay. Till next week.
Be well. Be cool, be kind.